Nyoro~n, DarkMirage, and a Rant on Bad Subbing
Posted by 0rion on November 2nd, 2007 - 11:26 pm
DarkMirage’s recent criticism of Nyoro~n’s Gundam 00 translations sparked a flurry of criticism, mostly petty ad hominems telling him to get out of his parent’s basement, but also a few reasonable arguments defending Nyoro~n. After checking out Nyoro~n’s releases myself, I feel compelled to offer some defense of my own, on DarkMirage’s side of things.
Although I don’t usually watch fansubbed versions, I decided to download a few of these Nyoro~n subs to check out whether this was for real. I almost couldn’t believe that these so-called “translations” could actually be that bad until I saw it for myself.
At first I thought maybe it was just an isolated incident, or perhaps due to the extensive technical jargon that Gundam 00 employs. To double check, I decided to take a look at Nyoro~n’s subs for Gurren Lagann, a show which is much easier to understand and translate.
To my dismay, however, it’s just as bad! I feel sorry for the people who watched this thinking they were getting the real Gurren Lagann!
Take a look at the following comparisons:
They’re between Black-Order subs (top) and Nyoro~n (bottom):
Not only does the Nyoro~n translator fail to realize that it’s all one sentence, he completely botches the second half of it. Now stop and think about that for just a second. It doesn’t even make any sense. Wouldn’t you start to wonder if maybe you had made a mistake?
Admittedly, it’s based on a fairly minor error in listening comprehension, but even assuming the Japanese text he shows is correct, it still doesn’t make any sense!
WTF?! Does he even stop to think whether this makes any sense?
Here even the Japanese is pretty nonsensical.
Once again, doesn’t make a single iota of sense. I have no clue how he even got that out of his interpretation of the Japanese lyrics.
And what the heck is “itertara”? Even a total beginner would know that that can’t be a real Japanese word.
All right, now admittedly I’ve seen some pretty bad subs in my day. For example, anyone remember this old School Rumble sub?
LOL!
wagamama = selfishness or pride, not mother 
But at least he’s man enough to admit when he’s not sure! And as ugly and clunky as the translation is, it’s still about 80% accurate, which is a lot better than certain other groups I’ve seen.
…
After seeing this travesty of translation that Nyoro~n is putting out, it seems pretty clear that there is legitimate reason for concern here.
Let me start by saying that, regardless of whether you agree with the way he stated his opinions or not, DarkMirage is providing a very valuable service. Without someone willing to provide independent, public analysis like he has done, most fans would have no way to gauge whether the subs they read are accurate. People deserve to know whether the translation they are watching is true to the story or not.
Now I don’t agree with the pointless juvenile bashing of fansubbers that often goes on; we already have way too many jerks who complain because there’s no karaoke, or the font is ugly, or for any number of other trivial reasons.
What is legitimately lacking, however, is honest, informed evaluation of a group’s translation. The translation is the heart of a fansub. Without it there is no fansub. Yet the vast majority of fans simply have no way of judging the quality of a translation. They’re relegated to blindly picking a group and hoping that it’s right.
In that respect, I think DarkMirage offers some much needed advice, pointing fans toward higher quality translations that will better represent the shows they love.
Now, you might say, “But why all the hating? Fansubbers do this in their own free time, providing a free service to those of us who otherwise would have no way to watch anime. Can’t you just leave them be?”
The problem with this kind of thinking is that what Nyoro~n and similar groups are doing is, in my opinion, worse than not subbing the show at all. It would be one thing if they did a partial translation and openly admitted when they were unsure; that I could respect. But to be so confidently, blatantly wrong about a translation, to the point that they’re essentially making things up and changing major plot points, is misleading and a disservice to both the fans and the show itself.
When you watch Nyoro~n’s translation of Gundam 00, you’re not really watching Gundam 00 as told by Sunrise & Co. You’re watching Gundam 00 as told by Nyoro~n, who just happens to be borrowing Sunrise’s pretty pictures and music.
Every week thousands of fans eagerly await the latest episode of their favorite show, and most of them quickly snatch it up from whatever group releases first, having no way of knowing that the story they are being told may be completely different from the real one. To release translations that are severely sub par is a huge disservice to the loyal fans who put their faith in someone to bring them the story.
Clunky dialogue and poor grammar is one thing; that I can live with. To simply be horribly, horribly wrong, though, is not acceptable. You can’t really call that translation at all.
DISCLAIMER:
While I don’t think people should download Nyoro~n’s subs and expect to get the real story, I also don’t condone treating them disrespectfully.
It seems that a number of people have gone on their site and made some very rude comments, which is a lot more harmful for the anime community than anything they might be doing wrong.
Not downloading Nyoro~n’s releases is fine. Calling them names and being a jerk to them is not.
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The time has come for translation oversight. We must now create the English Fansub Vetting Authority! The EFVA will have the power to approve all fansubs for accuracy, quality, and tastefulness. Any subbers who fail to meet the EFVA’s exacting standards will be excommunicated from the otaku world!
Hmmm, that sounds like sarcasm, but it was just a random idea that came into my head at 4:51 in the morning, lol. Actually I agree with you and I’m glad that there are warnings like this about misleading and blatantly wrong subs.
OK, here’s another idea. Let’s create a Society for Teaching Anime Japanese. The STAJ will focus on the goal of teaching English-speaking otaku Japanese online, specifically a crash course in the types Japanese phrases and vocabulary typically found in anime. This will reduce the reliance of fans on subtitles. Special “teaching” subs could be created. ZOMG, I must blog about this immediately!
A call to English and Japanese speaking fans: create the STAJ right away!…
Reading Orion’s recent revisitation of the Dark Mirage bad fansub debate, an idea occurred to me. I am quite serious about this: I want someone (preferably with a greater knowledge of Japanese than me) to create the Society for the Teaching of A…
Sounds like the TSAB. Hot.
Would there be training episodes?
‘And what the heck is “itertara”? Even a total beginner would know that that can’t be a real Japanese word.’
I have finished studying Hiragana but my Katakana is horrendous. Studied on my own by copying the characters over and over in an exercise book. Which means I’m below beginner level since I can’t read Katakana at a reasonable speed. And even I know itertara isn’t a Japanese word.
There is no freaking “r” in Japanese language so the word structure is broken.
This is direct evidence that the person who inserted that word does not know Japanese AT ALL since I know close to nothing. There is no good defense for this, except maybe the typesetter made a mistake. But it is word structure mistake which shows that YOU DON’T KNOW JAPANESE. If you heard the song wrongly and you inserted a completely different word with proper word structure, you’ve got a case. Nyoro~n doesn’t.
I really hope most Nyoro~n defenders eventually realise they are defending shit.
@ DS
You should find some way to alter the title of the organization a bit so that instead of STAJ the acronym can be STAB.
Not to completely defend Nyoron (because I side with DarkMirage), but I find it somewhat curious that you didn’t acknowledge their admission of error or their version 2 release in your criticism. While this still doesn’t justify their misleading “translations,” it does provide some finality of the drama on their side.
@ griever
It does, and you’re right, I’m glad to see lolfang & Co. taking steps in the right direction. On the other hand, though, I still don’t think it goes far enough in rectifying the problem.
Someone who doesn’t really understand Japanese is not suddenly going to be able to produce quality translations regardless of how sincere they are. The correct response, I think, is to stop distributing releases until they get their translation quality up to a minimum acceptable standard (i.e. - doesn’t screw the story up).
A lot of the mistakes I saw were not the result of a “rushed” release that could be fixed with a little more attention to detail. They were caused by a simple lack of sufficient fluency, a problem that can’t be repaired so easily.
If this was a show that no one was subbing, and they were struggling to bring some hidden gem to the masses despite its flaws, I would be willing to be a lot more forgiving, but all of the shows they’ve subbed have been done properly by much more competent groups.
Oh, I agree - they definitely didn’t go far enough. And I think you’re right - their torrents should be taken down until they can fix them. I admire the guy’s desire to work on his Japanese, but if he believes his released translations are correct, then he’s not only doing a disservice to the community but also to himself.
Hehe, very interesting. I didn’t know about this current controversy, but it’s nice to be informed. I don’t condone out right bashing but critical criticism is needed to get the point across.
Don’t knock the training, Kabitzin. That stuff was awesome. Seriously.
In terms of bad subbing, trust is the important thing as you’ve said. I only really have a small basic understanding of Japanese (1 yr of college Japanese wut), so I watch shows hoping that translations are as accurate as possible, since most of the time (like 60% of the time), I can’t tell whether or not a subbing group screwed up. And I do hope that when a group subs, they understand that sort of trust that’s given to them. As least the resulting subs should make sense in some way.
As you can see, I’m not really asking for much.
For being sarcastic, I would say they they are parodying anime fansubs in general… *Ahem*
More seriously, if you are unsure of your level of translation, don’t even try.
What’s worse than puffing your chest out of pride, do something that no one asked for or forced to do and not being able to do anything good in the end?
If you start to translate things (or rather spoil the original spirit) you messed up big time. I guess it’s what happened there.
I may know close to nil when it’s about the Japanese language, but I still can see when sentences make no sense at all. Where did the checker go, or was there one to begin with at least?
As for the School Rumble sub, “LOL This scen (sic) is so funny haha!” and “I don’t know what he said here… (complete with smiley)” are things that never should be seen in anime translations, except if it’s a specified joke (A “Hey, look! We intentionally and exceptionally want to show you how our heads can be screwed up sometimes!”) with a notice.
Such examples show that mediocrity is a standard for some and that they won’t do something about it.
Fansubs are made by fans, for fans as they say. The teams have to remain committed and take things seriously while keeping good ambiance within themselves and the community, otherwise uproar ensues. I agree in the creation of some quality feedback group.
Your School Rumble pictures are blurry. What a let down.
Hmm I didn’t know about this from the fansub sides. I would’ve have downloaded that subbers for Gundam 00 without knowing, but for me I usually try to find the HQ version then as well taken into account the fansub group as well. Usually ones with I have more experience with or hav eseen more of their work with and are quite prolific as well.
Well I kinda disappointed that the quality of the subs like this has gone down, but that’s still pretty weird if even the basic sentence structure is all messed up.
Would most people download whatever’s released first nowadays? Or is it just me when I wait for the fansub group to release the episodes on time? (or that I hope)
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